Comments on: Eusebius McKaiser and John Lennox at the #GMWits debate could have been stronger https://ryanpeterwrites.com/2014/09/19/eusebius-mckaiser-and-john-lennox-at-the-gmwits-debate-could-have-both-been-more-stronger-and-clear/ Writer. Indie Author. Ghostwriter. Journalist. Mon, 22 Sep 2014 20:22:34 +0000 hourly 1 By: Ryan Peter https://ryanpeterwrites.com/2014/09/19/eusebius-mckaiser-and-john-lennox-at-the-gmwits-debate-could-have-both-been-more-stronger-and-clear/#comment-1249 Mon, 22 Sep 2014 20:22:34 +0000 http://ryanpeterwrites.com/?p=2726#comment-1249 In reply to Jonathan Waldburger.

Great points! Will definitely read that article.

]]> By: Jonathan Waldburger https://ryanpeterwrites.com/2014/09/19/eusebius-mckaiser-and-john-lennox-at-the-gmwits-debate-could-have-both-been-more-stronger-and-clear/#comment-1248 Sat, 20 Sep 2014 10:46:56 +0000 http://ryanpeterwrites.com/?p=2726#comment-1248 I’m not sure if I understand this:

Lennox was clear that the only reason why he [himself places great faith in rationality] is because he believes we are made in God’s image and as a result we share some attributes of God, such as the ability to be rational.

Surely you don’t have to believe that you’re created in God’s image to have been created in God’s image? And if we are all created in God’s image then surely we also all have the ability to use our rationality to distinguish right from wrong. Just because someone like McKaiser is mistaken or ignorant about the origin of his rationality doesn’t mean that his rationality can’t provide a basis for morality.

Faith and reason are not opposed. What is immoral is not (merely) wrong because God says so (as divine command theory holds), but because it is opposed to reason and the God-given nature that all humans possess. Hence we can all agree that murder is wrong because it goes against human nature. Once you abandon our ability to reason you lower yourself down into the pit of skepticism, where there is no way to bootstrap your way out, not even with ‘faith’, since you have no reason to trust whatever ‘faith’ might tell you.

Edward Feser’s take on this issue from a classical theistic perspective might be of interest: http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/07/does-morality-depend-on-god.html

]]> By: Peter Missing https://ryanpeterwrites.com/2014/09/19/eusebius-mckaiser-and-john-lennox-at-the-gmwits-debate-could-have-both-been-more-stronger-and-clear/#comment-1247 Fri, 19 Sep 2014 15:24:09 +0000 http://ryanpeterwrites.com/?p=2726#comment-1247 … I see what you mean Steve … lol

]]> By: Stephen Whitford https://ryanpeterwrites.com/2014/09/19/eusebius-mckaiser-and-john-lennox-at-the-gmwits-debate-could-have-both-been-more-stronger-and-clear/#comment-1246 Fri, 19 Sep 2014 13:50:25 +0000 http://ryanpeterwrites.com/?p=2726#comment-1246 If I had to judge Eusebius solely based on my online engagement with him, it would be problematic… is what I meant. A point that He himself made.

]]> By: Stephen Whitford https://ryanpeterwrites.com/2014/09/19/eusebius-mckaiser-and-john-lennox-at-the-gmwits-debate-could-have-both-been-more-stronger-and-clear/#comment-1245 Fri, 19 Sep 2014 13:48:06 +0000 http://ryanpeterwrites.com/?p=2726#comment-1245 In reply to Kobus Kunz.

I was not there but this is the point I made in Ryan’s previous point. If I had to judge Eusebius on his online engagement with him alone, it would be problematic – I just don’t know him well enough. Trying to examine God without grappling with why we need relationship with God and engaging God on the need for relationship through Jesus is near futile, in my opinion.

]]> By: Kobus Kunz https://ryanpeterwrites.com/2014/09/19/eusebius-mckaiser-and-john-lennox-at-the-gmwits-debate-could-have-both-been-more-stronger-and-clear/#comment-1244 Fri, 19 Sep 2014 11:38:20 +0000 http://ryanpeterwrites.com/?p=2726#comment-1244 Hi Ryan
Well summarised. After last night I realised that Eusebius coming to the debate in the first place, was quite brave. Since he regards himself as an agnostic, and regards morality as objective, it places him in a very awkward situation. A situation that atheists and agnostic moral relativists don’t have. It’s like “I know this is wrong or right, but I don’t know why.”
He obviously struggled to defend his position. It just sounded like he argued a type of ‘god of the gaps’ for his case, thereby comforting himself that he doesn’t know why there is moral objectivity. In doing so, he keeps himself in that awkward ‘don’t know’ position.
John’s closing remarks about God being a person was actually the key to coming out of the uncertainty that Eusebius finds himself in. There is probably no evidence that John could give him that would convince him of God’s existence other than the fact that he said, “come closer to God [try it out]” .

]]> By: Ryan Peter https://ryanpeterwrites.com/2014/09/19/eusebius-mckaiser-and-john-lennox-at-the-gmwits-debate-could-have-both-been-more-stronger-and-clear/#comment-1243 Fri, 19 Sep 2014 10:45:26 +0000 http://ryanpeterwrites.com/?p=2726#comment-1243 In reply to Stephen Whitford.

Thanks Steve. Changed “Rationalism” to “Rationality” as it’s more precise.

“Is it only when a human mind reaches a certain level of enlightenment?”

This is the thing – is enlightenment even an absolute term? If so, where is the standard? Or who is the standard? If there is no standard then it’s relative, not absolute – I can’t see how you can make any other link.

]]> By: peter missing https://ryanpeterwrites.com/2014/09/19/eusebius-mckaiser-and-john-lennox-at-the-gmwits-debate-could-have-both-been-more-stronger-and-clear/#comment-1242 Fri, 19 Sep 2014 10:45:24 +0000 http://ryanpeterwrites.com/?p=2726#comment-1242 Thanks. Can delete edit request.

]]> By: Ryan Peter https://ryanpeterwrites.com/2014/09/19/eusebius-mckaiser-and-john-lennox-at-the-gmwits-debate-could-have-both-been-more-stronger-and-clear/#comment-1241 Fri, 19 Sep 2014 10:22:02 +0000 http://ryanpeterwrites.com/?p=2726#comment-1241 In reply to peter missing.

Thanks Pete! edited!

]]> By: peter missing https://ryanpeterwrites.com/2014/09/19/eusebius-mckaiser-and-john-lennox-at-the-gmwits-debate-could-have-both-been-more-stronger-and-clear/#comment-1240 Fri, 19 Sep 2014 10:06:04 +0000 http://ryanpeterwrites.com/?p=2726#comment-1240 Can you edit profound and change last sentence of para 1 to “The only way to objectic in scientific or moral thought …” I battle with phone texting.

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